MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
And we lead this hour with a lot of activity in the federal courts to do with President Trump's authority to impose tariffs unilaterally. Last night, a three-judge panel at the U.S. Court of International Trade struck down nearly all of President Trump's global tariffs. The White House called the ruling judicial overreach and appealed. And this afternoon, an appeals court granted the Trump administration's request, put the Court of International Trade's ruling on hold while the legal proceedings play out.
The lead plaintiff in the case is the founder of a small family-run New York wine company called VOS Selections. His name is Victor Schwartz, and we spoke to him and his attorney Jeffrey Schwab before the appeals court ruling. I started by asking Victor his reaction to last night's ruling.
VICTOR SCHWARTZ: I would not even have known about it if I weren't looking for a recipe. 'Cause I was trying to figure out exactly what I was going to do, and I went over to the computer, and I got an email from the Liberty Justice Center. And she said, we won, and there was a copy of the decision there. And of course, I started reading it, and it's all this legalese. And I just like - I don't know - like, what did we win, you know? It can be very technical. So I withheld my immediate joy, and I got in touch with a friend of mine who's a lawyer and said, what does this summary judgment thing mean? And he explained, and then I did celebrate. I said, wow, this is great.
KELLY: You won in a unanimous ruling, which...
SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
KELLY: ...We're going to hear a little bit more about in a second. I want you to explain, Victor Schwartz, for people who don't know your company. I hadn't heard about it. A lot of people are hearing of it today. You started - what? - nearly 40 years ago?
SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Yeah, I had moved to France and - just with the idea of working with small family farms and, you know, making really interesting wines from some less-known regions of France. And now we work with less-known regions from, like, 16 different countries around the world.
KELLY: You just mentioned you import now from 16 countries. I was trying to wrap my head around what kind of challenge these tariffs have posed for you, would pose for you.
SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
KELLY: If you're dealing with 16 countries, even if the White House cuts a deal with one of them, you're wrestling different tariff rates with the others, that - just the accounting challenge is mind-boggling.
SCHWARTZ: You know, wrestling, that's exactly the operative word. You know, when we heard about the tariffs, we literally went through every single skew in our book - which is quite a few - and had to decide what we were going to be doing pricing wise. You know, one thing you have to understand, here in New York, we have to post our prices with the state over a month in advance. You know, it's a very heavily regulated business. So there's that. And of course, shipping takes, you know, a couple of months. There's a lot involved. There's a lot involved. And yes, wrestling is the right way to put it.
KELLY: Was there a tipping point where you woke up and thought, we got to do something? Like, we're going to file suit. We're going to do something about this.
SCHWARTZ: No, the suit thing, I - totally is something that I kind of backed into. I'm an unintentional plaintiff. This was not something I was looking for. I heard from a family member that their former law professor was bringing a suit about the tariffs. And I was thinking, wow, I want to talk to this guy 'cause I want to tell him what's going on in the wine business. I got in touch with him. I remember it was a Sunday, and he liked what I had to say, and he put me in touch with Jeff Schwab, who's on the line here. And Jeff was kind of interested, too, and he asked me if I wanted to join the case. So one thing led to another. And next thing you know, I'm the lead plaintiff and got my head out there on the chopping block.
KELLY: Mr. Schwab, that's your cue to jump in here. So you are - you were lead attorney on this. You're with the Liberty Justice Center. The ruling that came down last night, it was addressing two lawsuits, a dozen states and five businesses that decided to challenge the president's authority to levy these tariffs unilaterally. Walk me through from your perspective how this came together.
JEFFREY SCHWAB: Well, independent from the states, we thought that the justification here for the tariffs was incorrect under the statute that the administration cites, which is the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, or often called IEEPA. And it doesn't authorize tariffs at all. It doesn't say anything about tariffs. We also said that if the president's interpretation was correct, then that would make the statute possibly unconstitutional because of separation of powers. Congress can't entirely delegate its authority to a tariff, which it's given under the Constitution. And the court agreed with us.
KELLY: Now, the Trump administration has already said they are appealing. Are you prepared to take this, if necessary, all the way to the Supreme Court?
SCHWAB: Yeah, absolutely. And we're pretty confident that our arguments are correct and that the president's actions exceed the authority that he's been given.
KELLY: The White House also issued a statement responding to the ruling last night saying, and I quote, "it is not for unelected judges to decide how to properly address a national emergency." I will note the three judges who ruled on this were nominated to the court by Presidents Reagan, Obama and Trump himself. But Jeffrey Schwab, any response to that White House position on unelected judges?
SCHWAB: Yeah, unelected judges are entitled to interpret statutes. That's exactly what they're there for, and that's what they did in this case.
KELLY: Victor Schwartz, one question for you. I mean, the president has argued that tariffs are necessary - among other reasons - he says because other countries have taken advantage of the U.S. through trade. I am curious. As a small, American business owner, have you experienced that?
SCHWARTZ: Not at all. I mean, the trade with Europe is very free-flowing. And in fact, I want to point out that the whole wine and spirits distribution system in America is very global. And American wineries depend upon distributors that carry international products. I mean, 25-, 30% of my portfolio are domestic wines. So the health of my company is very important to my domestic suppliers, as it is as much to my international suppliers.
KELLY: Are you celebrating tonight with a very good bottle of wine?
SCHWARTZ: An excellent bottle of wine from one of my suppliers. I don't know - I don't what - which one, but I will definitely celebrate.
KELLY: That's Victor Schwartz, founder of VOS Selections. We also spoke with his attorney, Jeffrey Schwab, of the Liberty Justice Center. That's a nonpartisan public interest law firm. Thanks to you both.
SCHWARTZ: Thank you, Mary Louise.
SCHWAB: Thank you.
KELLY: And again, a note - we spoke with them right before an appeals court paused the ruling that blocked Trump's tariffs. We'll stay on the story as the legal proceedings continue to play out. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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