TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Prison is rarely, if ever, described as a place where people get to experience joy or explore who they really are. But a new movie gives us an inside look at how incarcerated people are experiencing all of those things through theater. The film is called "Sing Sing" and is based on a theater program inside of the maximum security prison that's been around for 28 years called Rehabilitation Through the Arts. The movie stars Colman Domingo as Divine G, a man incarcerated for a crime he did not commit. He taps into the depths of his emotions and finds purpose through creating and starring in theatrical performances. The film is unique in that, with the exception of Domingo and a few others, the majority of the cast members are formerly incarcerated people who play versions of themselves. One of those actors is my guest today, Clarence Maclin. He first got involved in the theater program at Sing Sing while doing 17 years for robbery. In the film, Maclin plays a younger version of himself, an imprisoned person who is a natural on stage but struggles with his temper and shedding the version of himself that landed him there in the first place.
Joining Maclin is "Sing Sing" director Greg Kwedar. He and his writing partner, Clint Bentley, first learned about the program after reading an Esquire article about a group of men at the prison, including Maclin, who had performed a time-traveling musical comedy. Greg Kwedar and Clarence Maclin, welcome to FRESH AIR.
CLARENCE MACLIN: Thanks for having us.
GREG KWEDAR: Yeah. It's kind of crazy to be here. I'm a listener.
(LAUGHTER)
KWEDAR: Hi, mom.
MOSLEY: This is really a treat for us to talk to you all because this movie was really powerful to watch. And Greg, I read that it took you almost a decade to get this film made, so you were pretty into the story. What was it that you read in that Esquire article that made you want to stick this out and get this made?
KWEDAR: I think, first and foremost, it was the tone of it. It was the feeling, you know, 'cause I had read a lot of the press on Rehabilitation Through the Arts. And they had done all the classic plays, you know, from Shakespeare to "A Few Good Men." But this Esquire piece about this original production that had performed for four nights only in 2005 at Sing Sing of this time-traveling musical comedy called "Breakin' The Mummy's Code" - you know, it was the playfulness of the work juxtaposed against the environment it was set within that felt like it encompassed almost the entirety of the human experience. And I think more than anything, I felt the joy of the men at work doing this. It felt like an invitation that I couldn't dismiss. And that's sort of taken hold, and it has only deepened with time.
MOSLEY: Clarence, you were part of that time-traveling musical comedy performance, right?
MACLIN: Yes (laughter).
MOSLEY: You had participated in the Rehabilitation for the Arts program during your time...
MACLIN: Yes.
MOSLEY: ...In prison. But you had been out since, like, 2012 and were living life. And then you get this call about this opportunity for this movie.
MACLIN: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: I can imagine it was exciting, but it also was kind of a - sort of a call from your past - from Brent Buell, is that right? He was a...
MACLIN: That's right.
MOSLEY: ...Theater director that you worked with inside of the prison. And he called...
MACLIN: That's right.
MOSLEY: ...You up and said, there's this opportunity that...
MACLIN: Yes.
MOSLEY: ...Greg and his writing partner, Clint, had for you.
MACLIN: I - well, you know, it was really a no-brainer. Do you want to be in a movie? Of course. I'm on hand.
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
MACLIN: You already know that.
(LAUGHTER)
MACLIN: So if you're putting a spotlight on the ground, I'm jumping in it.
KWEDAR: Well - just to add on to that - Brent was one of the first people I reached out to when I read this Esquire piece. I reached out to the journalist, John H. Richardson, and then Brent Buell, who wrote and directed this madcap comedy and was a 10-year volunteer in the program. And he got on the phone, and the thing that he said was just like, you know, if you want to know what this is really like, you need to meet the men who lived it. Like, come up to New York. What I didn't, like, fully grasp at the time was that we were equally being interviewed...
(LAUGHTER)
MACLIN: Yeah.
KWEDAR: ...By everyone that was around that table. But what happened was, you know, we walked through the door. And this apartment in NoHo had been kind of a safe haven for a lot of the men. Like, when men were coming home and didn't have a place to stay, Brent and his wife, Janice, would open their doors and allow men to come stay as long as they needed to get on their feet. And so it already kind of possessed a bit of the safe space that the program had on the inside.
And Clarence was the first guy to walk through the door that day eight years ago. And I almost felt him before he entered the room. He has this presence, and now audiences everywhere are getting to see that on screen. But he - alongside the real Divine G, who was there, and several other men that are in this movie - there was this energy around the table. It was so distinctly New York, which was delicious for my Texan ears. But it was also warm and caring and this candle that they had kept on for each other that, you know, even now - home from their time incarcerated - anytime that they were around the table, they could light that flame again, you know? And we were just like, if we could only channel, like, what that room feels like and put it onto a screen, we have something.
MOSLEY: Clarence, do you remember that meeting?
MACLIN: I remember that meeting vividly because when we sat down and we met Greg and Clint, we talked about a little bit of everything. We didn't just only talk about the possibility of making a movie. We talked about how we see the world. It was more of feeling out - because RTA has had many opportunities. Many people came to us, but it doesn't seem like they was genuine. And we didn't feel that with Greg and Clint. We felt that they were sincere and they were genuine. And they came through Brent, and that in itself carries a lot of weight.
MOSLEY: I was struck by your description that the guys kept the light on for each other. And I'm very curious about how that then developed into them playing a version of themselves in the film. Because had you had this concept - when you thought, hey, I might want to adapt this into a film - that you were going to have actors in the traditional sense or these guys, who were actors, play themselves?
KWEDAR: Well, it was very clear even then the talent that's there. And, you know, that can be described in a number of ways. There's - yes, there's talent in terms of, like, acting potential, the craft of which this group of men had developed - sometimes, for decades - through this program and through many productions. But there's this power of what can happen when you add lived experience into the storytelling process as well. And we knew even then that, you know, we wanted to feature alumni in this movie.
I mean, just meeting Clarence was like, OK, that guy has to be in the film (laughter), you know, but not totally clear yet that it wouldn't just be - feature in the film but actually be a cornerstone of the film, like, be the very beating heart of the film - this group of men, you know, at the center, with a platform to help tell their own story. That took time, you know? And it took a lot of learning for us as artists to open that circle up and not try to imitate what we saw happening as filmmakers, but to actually embrace and almost mirror and reflect the program itself in the process of making the film.
MOSLEY: Something really interesting - even at the start of our conversation with each other, I heard you, Clarence, say to Greg, beloved. And in the film, you guys call each other beloved. Can you tell the story of how that name came to be?
MACLIN: Well, a group of us in Sing Sing, not just only members of RTA - there was other men involved, too - we decided that we wanted to take this word - the N word - and flip it around and try to find a better way of addressing ourselves in a more positive way, of reinforcing reaffirmations about who we are. So to one another, what you mean to me? So, beloved was the term that we came up with.
MOSLEY: Yeah. How does it feel to be called beloved, Greg?
KWEDAR: It's actually the first time Clarence has ever called me that.
MACLIN: (Laughter).
KWEDAR: I mean, I've been, you know, again, a witness to marveling at what happens when you hear it in the room, and then also on film, and then to see how audiences receive that, and it starts to make small shifts inside them. But I remember very distinctly, the first time I ever heard it was the first time that Clarence and Colman Domingo ever met. It was on a Zoom, and they were just having a conversation. I was just kind of eavesdropping in a little Zoom box as they began to discuss and tell stories from their lives. And when Clarence shared that that was something essential to a lot of the relationships and the culture that they were building inside, it stopped the whole conversation and Colman was immediately brought to tears, and he just looked at me as like, that has to be in the film.
MOSLEY: There's such great chemistry between you and Colman Domingo, Clarence. It feels natural. There are actually two very powerful scenes in the film where you two meet by this window in the prison. And each time you're there, you're coming from a different place, and by the end, you reverse attitudes, and it feels like we're watching two people who have known each other for a really long time, too. What did you learn from working with Colman?
MACLIN: Oh, man, I learned a lot of things as far as this craft of entertaining and and acting like. We come from the theater, so I never was on screen before, so that's a lot of differences. And one of the differences that in the theater, at least on the stage that I was performing on, you have to come from the diaphragm to make sure that the guy all the way in the last seat over there can hear every syllable, every enunciation, and every inflection on a word because it may change what he hears. So what I learned from Colman is that you could bring that in. You don't have to be so big with it (laughter). You know, just bring it in, dig more inside and bring more of yourself out.
MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guests are Greg Kwedar and Clarence Maclin from the new film "Sing Sing," which follows a group of men incarcerated at a maximum security prison and who find hope and redemption through a theater program. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF OFFICE MUSIC EXPERTS' "ANOTHER GALAXY")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today, my guests are Clarence Maclin and director Greg Kwedar from the film "Sing Sing." The movie follows Divine G, portrayed by Colman Domingo, who was incarcerated for a crime he did not commit. Within the prison, Divine G finds a sense of purpose through his involvement in a theater group that is part of the real life Rehabilitation Through the Arts program. It took director Greg Kwedar and his team seven years to make the film. And many of the cast members were formerly incarcerated people who participated in the actual theater program, including Clarence Maclin, who portrays a younger version of himself in the movie. I want to play a scene from the film "Sing Sing."
In this scene, veteran actor Paul Raci plays Brent Buell, the theater director, who in real life, spent about a decade working for the Rehabilitation Through the Arts program. Raci has a group of you guys, participants in a circle during a warm-up exercise, where he asks all of you to recall a vivid memory. And then the men go around in a circle recounting their memories, starting with Divine G, played by Colman Domingo. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SING SING")
COLMAN DOMINGO: (As Divine G) Summer, 1977. It's hot. Water ice truck coming down the street. Mom gives me 25 cents. I go running down the street to get it. Taste all cool in your mouth (laughter). Flavor - cherry, I love cherry. Mouth all red.
MACLIN: (As Divine Eye) Spending time with my son and my daughter. Just watching them grow, living their life. You know?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) 90 degree weather cutting grass in the backyard to a point where I'm just so exhausted, and I just lay back and I smell the fresh grass I just cut, and I'm dozing off and my dog come licking sweat off my face.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Every summer, my mother sent me to Baltimore with my uncles, and they're only a few years older than me. And it was a sense of freedom, 'cause my mother wasn't looking over my shoulder.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: That's how they doing one about the islands, you know? My grandma always tell us about the islands. The islands - that's where our people are from. Couldn't do it, (speaking non-English language). I ain't never been there. I ain't never been there, and I'm not going to get there. I was just real. I'm stuck in this space. But I'm going to be stuck in the space. I guess I'll do what you suckers. And here it's right. Get a little release. So I guess this is my space.
MOSLEY: That was a scene from the film "Sing Sing," directed by my guest Greg Kwedar and starring Clarence Maclin. And we hear in that scene, you guys are doing this exercise. And Clarence, in that scene, you're the second person to speak, and I think you say something like spending time with my son and my daughter and watching them grow. But we notice that everyone else shares these detailed stories, and you give the shortest answer, which is - when folks watch the film, they'll understand that because we're watching your character grow over time. But your character has this heart of a poet, as it's described, but the demeanor of a wolf. Was that how it was for you in real life when you first joined the program?
MACLIN: Well, I was - yeah, I was a little reluctant to share the most inner me, because I didn't think at that point that it would be believed or accepted. So, you know, especially when you're dealing with your kids, and you know, in prison, you're not going to give up too much about your personal. You know, that kind of trust got to build. And although I was in a circle with brothers I trusted, at that point, I didn't trust that much yet.
MOSLEY: How long did it take for you to shed that wolf and allow some of the silly to get in for you to embody the characters that you were playing?
MACLIN: Well, it was definitely happened through RTA. It more or less happened during the downtimes when we weren't doing actual performances, but we were having workshops. And in the workshops, we would peel back layers of the onion that we are. We have a bunch of layers that we have to peel back and examine. And in those workshops is where a lot of bonds, a lot of brotherhood bonds was built.
MOSLEY: What was your first time being on stage like?
MACLIN: I remember everybody said I was supposed to be nervous and have butterflies in my stomach but that's not what I remember.
MOSLEY: What do you remember?
MACLIN: I remember me taking the stage (laughter). I'm here to tell a story, and I wanted you to be engrossed in that story. I want you to be submersed in it. I did August Wilson's play "Jitney," and I played Booster, the son. And I remember I was giving the monologue, and I had this pause. I had this pause, and I extended the pause a little bit because, you know, when you're on stage, you only could see the front row. Like, the lights blind you. I can't see everybody. But I couldn't hear anybody breathe or nothing. And I didn't know whether I was doing good or bad.
(LAUGHTER)
MACLIN: Yeah, so that was empowering for me to find out that I was actually doing good. They was on the edge of the seat waiting for the next thing I'd say.
MOSLEY: Greg, what did you know about prison before directing this movie, and maybe what was your perceptions? How were they tested?
KWEDAR: Well, truthfully, very little, you know, and I think that's sort of the power of how the system works to make people who are incarcerated invisible. You know, there's the walls. There's the greens. There's the numbers. All these things are quite effective to kind of erase them from public conscience, unless you happen to have your family directly touched by it, of which, sadly, that's also much of America. You know, I was privileged in the way that my family hadn't directly been touched by incarceration. But when I first went behind the walls, I was producing a short documentary eight years ago, and on a tour of the facility, I passed by a cell and there was a young man raising a rescue dog inside of a cell and literally stopped in my tracks. Because in that moment, like the rug was pulled. All of my expectations of prison incarcerated people, largely built upon honestly the movies I had grown up watching, here, I was seeing the opposite of that.
I was seeing a person in their fullness there in that room. I was seeing the healing that was happening in both directions between this man and this animal, and I was just - I was really frustrated, you know, almost like you had the wool pulled over your eyes for a long time, and now you were seeing, like in 20/20 vision, and once you see it, once you see someone's humanity, you can't unsee that. I think that's the gift of what that moment was. But also it was a charge to, what are you going to do with it now? And that night in the hotel room, I typed into Google who is doing things differently in prison and Rehabilitation Through the Arts was at the top of the search field. And I just consumed all of the stories that I was reading, and that's when I came across that Esquire article about the production of this play and reached out. It was all connected in one day, all of that unfolded.
MOSLEY: I've heard Clarence say, how much it meant for you to see people from the outside come in and spend their time. Well, I know you initially joined Rehabilitation for the Arts (ph) to flirt with the women volunteers. I think that was something that you actually said first. But you've also talked about, like, seeing people like Greg and knowing that they were invested in you...
MACLIN: Right.
MOSLEY: ...And seeing you in the program, actually being a part of you stepping deeper into your commitment into this kind of work.
MACLIN: Yes, that's true, because it was like, we have all of a sudden, now you have people that come in from the outside, and they don't see you as this wolf, this monster, this whatever image that you have to portray around the yard in the jail and all those things. But they actually see you as people, as a human being, and when my opinion became valuable, and, you know, when my thoughts became something that they wanted to know, you know, it changed the relationship. It's kind of like I have to see myself different as well. I have to formulate valuable opinions now. I can't just offer up anything. So my expectation of them also became an expectation that they had of me. And this was a beautiful exchange because it helps me to grow that way. That's a way that I can learn and grow from, by, you know, being respected and being treated as if I matter. That's one of the things that I would like to pass on for others that - brothers that may feel as though they're not valuable or that they don't matter.
If we could pour a little bit of that into everyone. If we could let them know, just let them know that they matter. And it would change their own expectations of themselves.
MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guests today are director Greg Kwedar and actor Clarence Maclin from the new film "Sing Sing." We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF WORLD SAXOPHONE QUARTET'S "(SITTIN' ON) THE DOCK OF THE BAY")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. And my guests today are actor Clarence Maclin and director Greg Kwedar from the film "Sing Sing," which is based on the Rehabilitation Through the Arts program at the real-life maximum security prison. In the film, Colman Domingo plays the role of Divine G, a man who was incarcerated for a crime he did not commit. Divine G, along with his fellow inmates, find a sense of purpose through theater. And many of the cast members are alumni of the actual theater program, including Maclin, who plays a younger version of himself. While in prison, Maclin served as a stage manager for the production of "A Few Good Men" and starred in the 2015 documentary "Dramatic Escape," which showcased how Rehabilitation Through the Arts brings a production together.
Clarence, you grew up in Mount Vernon, N.Y., right?
MACLIN: Yeah, Mount Vernon.
MOSLEY: How would you describe the area where you grew up?
MACLIN: Just like any other suburban city right outside the Bronx. It's more hood than not, especially where I grew up at. We grew up poor. But I had a lot of fun growing up. I enjoyed my life.
MOSLEY: Yeah, you grew up with your mom and your two younger brothers.
MACLIN: My two brothers. Yeah, yeah.
MOSLEY: Yeah. There's this description I've heard you say where, like, you were a fighter. You were the one to always take up for your little brothers. How did that reputation come to be?
MACLIN: Well, growing up, you know, kids are cruel. They want to find something to pick on you about or whatever. Now, picking on me, I can laugh with you and joke with you. But if you make my little brother cry, I'm going to have a problem with that. So that's how the fights would start, when they'd pick on my brother too much and he'd cry.
MOSLEY: And then you got the reputation of a tough guy, somebody not to play with.
MACLIN: Yeah. I found out early that a lot of these guys that talk a lot can't fight.
MOSLEY: Yeah. There's this scene in the movie where you and Colman Domingo's character, Divine G, are picking out costumes...
MACLIN: Yeah.
MOSLEY: And talking about the program and acting and everything. And in this scene, you relay your thoughts about who you are.
MACLIN: Yeah.
MOSLEY: And Colman Domingo as Divine G speaks first. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SING SING")
DOMINGO: (As Divine G) What's up? You all right?
MACLIN: (As Divine Eye) Yeah, it's just my slings and arrows are on the inside. And all this make-believe acting and college degrees, that don't really change the fact I'm a gangster. And that's my destiny. That's what's waiting for me on the outside. It's like "Hamlet." All he wants is Maid Marian, and he'll go against the whole Greek army, but to what end?
DOMINGO: (As Divine G) What I do know, if I don't know anything, is you're an artist. This is just bringing out parts of yourself that has been hidden, you know, remained dormant. Just go for it. Trust it.
MOSLEY: That was a scene from the new movie "Sing Sing," starring my guest Clarence Maclin and directed by my guest Greg Kwedar. Clarence, what we are watching is you contending with the person that you think you are. And I'm just really struck by you saying, like, your destiny is to be this person that you have been. Was that something that you had to do in real life, contend with the person that you are and then the person that you ultimately would find out is inside of you?
MACLIN: Yes, that definitely is reflective of how I used to think at a time in my life. Like, all the males I saw did the same thing. All the males I saw had pretty much the same outcome. It's pretty rare for anyone to escape it. So this is how young men get to feel as though, this must be my destiny - it must be who I'm supposed to be. Until you're presented with other possibilities that you could become something other than this, till that happens, you may live out that destiny rather than challenge it with other realities, other possibilities.
MOSLEY: When did it become true or real to you that - even what Colman's character is saying to you here, you're an artist. When did that, like, seep into who you were and who you are?
MACLIN: Well, the artist part was like a reconnection, because when I was younger, like in the movie, I was telling Colman I used to draw. I used to paint. I used to create with my hands a lot. However, that's not what the cool kids were doing. And I was built like I should be playing football or basketball or something like that, and that's what a lot of the kids at my age were more into. And this way, I guess they built their little team, comradery around with the uniforms and all that. But I'd rather do things on my own, like paint by myself and draw by myself. And being that that wasn't the popular thing to do, I kind of, like, suppressed that side of me until I reconnected with this Rehabilitation Through the Arts program and began to reawaken that artist person.
MOSLEY: Greg, I want to talk to you a little bit about grief, because there is a scene, without giving it away - Colman Domingo's character Divine G's best and only real friend in prison is - dies. What did you learn about the processing of grief within prison walls? Because I felt like that scene, and that actual storyline, offered a different way and ways that I hadn't seen before to be able to articulate what that feels like from the inside.
KWEDAR: It was something that, honestly, we struggled so much on the page of how to render it, even in the edit. I kept thinking, like, maybe we didn't get it right, you know? And I think, as I look back on it, I think part of it is that it's missing all of the rituals we have available to us on the outside to grieve someone's death. The wake, a funeral, an actual tombstone. And generally - outside of this program - inside, none of that is available. There are bars, steel doors, walls that separate you from even seeing with your own eyes that someone is truly gone, you know? The compartmentalization that happens around death is very stark and binary, you know? There's no room for the normal grieving process. And if you're shown to grieve or to weep, that would be viewed as some kind of weakness, you know? And so the way that that plays out is hard to capture on film because we're like, wait, wait, wait, wait - you know, in our logic as an audience, we're used to seeing these normal steps unfold. And they're not there.
And I remember it so vividly. When we were volunteers, Clint and I, when we were teaching a class, anytime there was ever an empty chair, immediately the tenor in the room would shift. Like, is that chair empty for some benign reason? Or is that chair empty for something very awful, you know? And it's a hard thing to process because we don't have the normal tools that are available to the rest of society.
MOSLEY: Clarence, this is familiar to you because you've lived it.
MACLIN: Yes, it is. But the part that RTA shows that I think that no other prison shows, that TV shows or movies have shown is that we gather around our brothers when things like that happen, you know? There's a humanity amongst us that, although those rituals have been taken from us, we still, you know, have our own instrument, which is our physical bodies, and we use that.
MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guests are director Greg Kwedar and actor Clarence Maclin from the new film "Sing Sing," which follows a group of men incarcerated at a maximum security prison and who find hope and redemption through a theater program. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF BRYCE DESSNER'S "ESCAPE").
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today, my guests are Clarence Maclin and director Greg Kwedar from the film "Sing Sing." The movie follows Divine G, portrayed by Colman Domingo, who is incarcerated for a crime he did not commit. Within the prison, Divine G finds a sense of purpose through his involvement in a theater group that is part of the real-life Rehabilitation Through the ARTS program. It took director Greg Kwedar and his team seven years to make the film. And many of the cast members were formerly incarcerated people who participated in the actual theater program, including Clarence Maclin, who portrays a younger version of himself in the movie.
Clarence, I was struck by your character - and I'm wondering if it's real life, too - really infused humor into a way to cope. And one of the things you all wanted to do is to create a comedy.
MACLIN: Yeah, right (laughter).
MOSLEY: Which is sort of a mechanism. It's a way to laugh to keep from crying. It's kind of a way to survive.
MACLIN: A way to decompress sometimes. Sometimes the prison needs to decompress. It be a lot going on in prison, and sometimes the whole prison needs to decompress. They may not even know it. But then you throw a comedy on, and then you got 600 dudes laughing. That changes the temperature.
MOSLEY: I want to play a clip of some of the things you all do in the process of coming up with the idea for a play, and in particular this really ambitious play about - time-traveling musical comedy. And you all are spitballing. And Paul Raci, who plays a group leader, Brent, speaks first. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SING SING")
PAUL RACI: (As Brent) Did you guys decide, or are we going to take a vote here? Or anybody else have any ideas?
MACLIN: (As Divine Eye) Yeah. I don't mean to step on anybody toes in here or nothing or disrespect the group. But do all the plays have to be so serious?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) Yo, what do you mean by serious, though?
MACLIN: (As Divine Eye) I mean, like, every day, we're dealing with trauma, drama. Every day, we got tragedy. I mean, I think the population just might appreciate a comedy.
RACI: (As Brent) How you guys feel about that?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As character) That makes sense.
RACI: (As Brent) I don't like comedies. I like satires.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As character) We never did it before.
RACI: (As Brent) What kind of comedy would you propose? I mean, would it be a broad comedy or something more lowkey? Or...
MACLIN: (As Divine Eye) I don't know. I'm just talking about making people laugh.
RACI: (As Brent) Yeah, I understand. But I'm just trying to be more specific in terms of, like, what kind of comedy you want. I mean, that's just my opinion.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As character) How about a cowboy comedy? I always wanted to do a Western, like "Blazing Saddles" or something.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #7: (As character) Egyptians.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) Egyptian comedies?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As character) We can sneak some Shakespeare in there, "Hamlet."
RACI: (As Brent) "Hamlet" in the comedy? "Hamlet" in the comedy. All right.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #8: (As character) We can do something in the forest, Robin Hood or something like that.
MACLIN: (As Divine Eye) Peter Pan.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #8: (As character) Yeah.
MACLIN: (As Divine Eye) How about Jason?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #9: (As character) "Nightmare On Elm Street."
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) Can I ask a question? Can someone name a comedy that contains all that bull**** that you just named?
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: That was a scene from the film "Sing Sing," directed by my guest Greg Kwedar and starring Clarence Maclin. And that was, like, a really great clip because it allowed us to see just the process, the brainstorming process, which, first off, is that how it really was, or a variation of how it is?
MACLIN: That is a variation of how we do it because we'll take suggestions from population. We'll take - we ask, what do you want to see? And it ultimately lands in the lap of the steering committee, the individuals inside the prison who are actually charged with the membership and putting things together. So everybody in the circle throws out ideas of what we want to do. And that's what that scene was indicative of, of how everyone's opinion is valuable.
MOSLEY: What you guys came up with was pretty fantastical. But have you guys produced things that you were part of that you just really loved?
MACLIN: I like - the very first play that I was in was called "Stratford's Decision." It was another play written by a prisoner. And we had a lot of fun with that. It was another lighthearted, you know, something that eased the tension.
MOSLEY: What was it about?
MACLIN: "Stratford's Decision" was a love story. It was something akin to "Romeo And Juliet," but it was more comical. And that was really my first play ever being in. Actually, somebody had dropped out and I got the opportunity to take their spot.
MOSLEY: What was your character?
MACLIN: Well, at first, I had absolutely no lines. This is a Elizabethan play, so it's a lot of elaborate costumes, a lot of color. And I'm up onstage, I'm in a very colorful top, and I'm just posturing.
(LAUGHTER)
MACLIN: But I guess I postured really well because the director decided I may need one or two lines now.
(LAUGHTER)
MACLIN: Now, when I got the one or two lines is when I got bit by the acting bug. Now I need to be the lead now. These two lines done...
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: You know, you talk about how, like, of course, you can't see the audience. You only see the first row. And it's dark, and you're reciting your lines. And sometimes, they're just silent 'cause they're, like, enraptured. But other times, you're fed by the energy of the audience....
MACLIN: Yes, yeah.
MOSLEY: ...Right?
MACLIN: It's like a wave. You learn how to ride it.
MOSLEY: There's this moment in the film when Colman's character is released from prison, and he's walking out of those gates. And it's kind of a long walk to get to where you are, Clarence, and your character is waiting for him. And that moment of freedom is just written all over Colman's face. And you experienced that yourself. What was your moment like - your first walk of freedom?
MACLIN: My first walk of freedom was similar to what you see in the movie. When I got out of prison, Nick and Dave from Saboteur film were waiting outside for me, along with a friend of mine, who's named April Watson (ph). There was three people waiting outside the gate for me. We were just wrapping up the rest of "Dramatic Escape." So they filmed me coming out the gate. So it felt really good to have a support system in place, to have someone on the outside waiting for you. And in reality, many of us don't. Many of us are driven to the bus station or the train station - given $40. And you better be on the train - the very first train out of here or else we may arrest you again - trespassing.
And by the time I came out in 2012, I had a lot more skills under my belt than I would have had had I not gone through RTA or had I not gotten a college degree. So I was a bit more prepared. And plus, I had a network of people - brothers and sisters - who had already gone through RTA. And now they're on the outside creating opportunities for brothers like us that come out.
MOSLEY: Greg, I'm reflecting on this idea of rehabilitation because, I mean, it's the name of the real-life program. It's what prison, theoretically, is supposed to offer. But we're doing this interview because it's remarkable - this program - and these stories feel like - I mean, they feel like an exception and not the rule.
MACLIN: They are.
MOSLEY: Is there hope here? I mean, because what you are showing us is a possibility for an answer to a bigger question, a bigger problem that we haven't really found solutions for - this idea of rehabilitating people through the arts.
KWEDAR: I mean, it's evident in the work of this program that has been around since 1996. And so many people have come home to beautiful lives that - they have the tools and the community around them to flourish. And, I mean, the results are quite staggering, if you look at, you know, a very sad statistic in our country, which is our recidivism rates. You know, over 60% of people, within five years of their release, will go back inside. But graduates of this program - less than 3% ever go back to prison. And, you know, it is a very bold statistic. But I think the evidence in our film is a proof of its success.
The majority of our cast are alumni of this program, and you are seeing firsthand in the audience the fullness of themselves and their gifts. And I - you know, you just trust, as you watch this, that this process is working 'cause you're seeing it unfold in front of your eyes.
MOSLEY: Clarence Maclin and Greg Kwedar, thank you so much for this conversation.
MACLIN: Thanks for having us.
KWEDAR: It was a gift. Thank you.
MOSLEY: Director Greg Kwedar and actor Clarence Maclin from the film "Sing Sing." The movie is in theaters now. After a short break, film critic Justin Chang reviews the independent drama "Good One," which premiered at this year's Sundance Film Festival. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF BRIAN ENO AND JOHN CALE'S "SPINNING AWAY") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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