STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
We have an update now on one of the country's great rivalries.
MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Yes, the rivalry between Minnesota and Wisconsin.
INSKEEP: The Vikings versus the Packers, the Minnesota Golden Gophers versus the Wisconsin Badgers.
MARTIN: You may not know this, but there's an equally contentious debate over which state has more lakes.
INSKEEP: Ah, well, Michel, I assume that would be Minnesota because they're the people whose license plates say The Land of 10,000 Lakes.
MARTIN: One might think so, but the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources begs to differ. They say its state has more than 15,000.
INSKEEP: What?
MARTIN: So this being NPR, of course, we called an expert to settle the debate.
INSKEEP: (Laughter).
JOHN DOWNING: So I live on the border between Minnesota and Wisconsin, so I'm a little bit careful, but both of these states have absolutely wonderful lakes and lots of them.
MARTIN: John Downing is director of the University of Minnesota program to educate the public about water science. Here's his conclusion.
DOWNING: Minnesota has more.
MARTIN: Now, before you accuse him of pro-Minnesota bias, he says the two states define lakes a little differently.
DOWNING: Wisconsin thought they had a whole lot more than Minnesota, but they count smaller things as lakes.
MARTIN: Downing and other scientists define a lake as an inland body of water with an area of at least 10 acres and a, quote, "windswept shore."
INSKEEP: (Laughter) A wind...
MARTIN: Did you get all that? Did you get that?
INSKEEP: I got that. I'm writing down the windswept shore.
MARTIN: Absolutely.
INSKEEP: So what - Wisconsin had a different standard?
MARTIN: Right - what Minnesotans might call a pond, Wisconsinites call a lake.
INSKEEP: (Laughter) Puddle?
MARTIN: For example, one of Wisconsin's smallest lakes is Moonshine Lake. It's only about two-tenths of an acre. That's half the size of a hockey rink. Bodies of water like that increase the count.
DOWNING: And it's just because there are lots more little things in the world. Just like there are lots more tiny, you know, little words in the world than there are big words.
INSKEEP: I like small words, too. So what would happen if Wisconsin used the same standard as Minnesota?
MARTIN: Downing says Wisconsin's lake count would drop to 6,000, and that matters not only because of bragging rights - it also affects environmental regulations.
DOWNING: Different laws and different rules apply to different water bodies. And, you know, the laws that are there to protect wetlands - if it's not classified as a wetland, but classified as a lake, the protection is different.
INSKEEP: So bodies of water classified as ponds or puddles or water stains often get no protection.
MARTIN: But even if Minnesota does have Wisconsin beat in the lakes department, neither of them tops Ontario.
INSKEEP: Oh gosh, the Canadian province has a lot of lakes.
MARTIN: Yes. Ontario has more than a quarter million lakes making up one-fifth of the planet's freshwater supply.
INSKEEP: Glad we resolved that. Now we just got to figure out which of these states makes more cheese.
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