JUANA SUMMERS, HOST:
Former President Donald Trump announced that rules for a September 10 debate with Vice President Kamala Harris are now set, but the Harris campaign says, not so fast, that negotiations are continuing. The campaigns have been squabbling publicly all week long about whether the candidates' microphones will be muted when it is not their turn to speak. The Harris campaign wants the mics to be open. The Trump campaign does not. NPR White House correspondent Franco Ordoñez is covering the campaign, and his mic is open to talk to us about this debate over the debate. Hey, Franco.
FRANCO ORDOÑEZ, BYLINE: Hey, Juana.
SUMMERS: Franco, help me understand. What is the big deal about muted mics?
ORDOÑEZ: Yeah, I mean, it's really kind of fascinating, because when this was all worked out a couple months ago by the Biden campaign, it was largely believed that the muted mics would actually benefit Biden the most. The idea was kind of to guard against Trump's worst tendencies to interrupt, to basically bulldoze over his opponents. I mean, I'm sure you remember this moment four years ago, when Biden and Trump debated back in 2020.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: I'm not going to answer the question because...
DONALD TRUMP: Why won't you answer that question?
BIDEN: Because the question is - the question is...
TRUMP: You have put a lot of (inaudible) Supreme Court justice, radical left...
BIDEN: The question - will you shut up, man?
TRUMP: Who is - listen, who is...
ORDOÑEZ: I mean, the Biden team wanted to prevent that kind of chaos, yet Biden was actually seen as winning that debate largely because of how Trump behaved. Well, now Harris is trying to make some changes. You know, she's trying to chart her own course, and she wants to turn the mics back on, perhaps to show some contrast between her and Trump's styles. And the campaign - the Trump campaign, that is, sees this as a bait and switch.
SUMMERS: Bait and switch because the debate in June was sort of the catalyst to Biden stepping out of the race, right?
ORDOÑEZ: Yeah, that's right. I mean, Biden had a bad day, muted mics or not. That led to top Democrats questioning his place at the top of the ticket. Trump was actually helped by the mic - the muted mics, though, in June as it helped prevent the interrupting. And even though Trump repeated many, many false claims, in contrast to the stumbling Biden, Trump seemed more serious. He seemed more disciplined.
The reality, though, is that hot-mic moments, they can help or they can hurt a political candidate. It certainly hurt Trump four years ago. Let's also, though, remember another debate that was also four years ago in 2020, and that was the one between Harris and then-Vice President Mike Pence. Harris was talking about COVID-19, the pandemic, when Pence attempted to interrupt her while she was speaking to the moderator.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS: But, Susan, I - this is important, and I want to add...
MIKE PENCE: Susan, I have to weigh in here.
HARRIS: Mr. Vice President, I'm speaking.
PENCE: I have to weigh in.
HARRIS: I'm speaking.
ORDOÑEZ: So she's no stranger to the hot-mic moment, and that was perhaps the most memorable moment of the debate, where she really got to demonstrate her assertiveness, her authority.
SUMMERS: Right. I do remember that. Franco, I guess I'm curious, what do you think happens? How does this all get resolved?
ORDOÑEZ: Well, the Harris campaign tells NPR that negotiations are continuing with ABC News, which is hosting the debate, and they're also doing everything they can to bait and goad Trump into agreeing to the live mics. They even posted on Trump's social media site a video of him with a background soundtrack of chickens clucking loudly. And Trump undercut his team a bit yesterday also when he told reporters in Virginia that he'd likely rather have the microphones on.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
TRUMP: Doesn't matter to me. I'd rather have it probably on. But the agreement was that it would be the same as it was last time. In that case, it was muted. I didn't like it the last time, but it worked out fine.
ORDOÑEZ: So, you know, we'll see how it plays out. Trump's already threatened to pull out of the debate, arguing that the network is biased. But they need to get this resolved soon, as they're set to meet in less than two weeks.
SUMMERS: That's NPR's Franco Ordoñez. Franco, thanks.
ORDOÑEZ: Thanks, Juana. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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