JUANA SUMMERS, HOST:
By the early 2000s, only a handful of queer female characters had ever been featured on television, so just imagine the buzz when "The L Word" premiered in 2004.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE L WORD")
LEISHA HAILEY: (As Alice Pieszecki) OK. Melanie slept with Heather.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) OK.
HAILEY: (As Alice Pieszecki) Heather slept with Brooke.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Heather slept with Brooke?
HAILEY: (As Alice Pieszecki) Yes. Brooke slept with Nina. And I slept with Nina. See that?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Wow, yeah.
HAILEY: (As Alice Pieszecki) So four. One, two, three, four. That is how many people it takes to link you to me.
SUMMERS: Over six seasons and a 2019 reboot, "The L Word" explored lesbian identity, friendship and sex with nuance, humor and a whole bunch of drama. Leisha Hailey and Kate Moennig starred in "The L Word" as Alice and Shane, and they are the authors of a new memoir. It's called "So Gay For You: Friendship, Found Family, And The Show That Started It All."
Leisha, Kate, welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
KATE MOENNIG: Oh, goodness, thank you for having us.
HAILEY: Thank you so much for having us. We're thrilled to be here.
SUMMERS: I got to just start off by saying that you have lit up several of my group chats who are just so excited to have this conversation. I mean, "The L Word" for so many of us was a show that we found community around, we found family around, and even so many years removed, that seems to be the case now. What do you think it is about "The L Word" that has been so enduring for so many people?
MOENNIG: Isn't that wild? - it's still connecting.
HAILEY: And it still means something to us to talk about, right?
MOENNIG: Yeah. Maybe it's because nothing has ever filled its place. And you'd think it would after all this time, but nothing had.
HAILEY: It also was about the friendships.
MOENNIG: Yeah.
HAILEY: And I think that surprised a lot of people. Like, a lot of straight people watched the show as well because that's what they identified with.
MOENNIG: Also, it was the first.
HAILEY: Yeah. You can't beat the first of anything.
MOENNIG: And that certainly might add to it.
SUMMERS: And I want to start by talking a little bit about your origin story. You guys met in the casting process for this show. You were both up for the same part - to play the character Shane, which Kate ended up portraying. And there's this sort of immediate magnetism between the two of you that you describe in the book. I'll let you pick up the story from here.
(LAUGHTER)
HAILEY: Well, that is a true story. We were both testing. It was actually the last phase of the audition process.
MOENNIG: We were the only two.
HAILEY: And it's shocking to people, including myself, that I was up for that part...
(LAUGHTER)
HAILEY: ...Because I can't imagine it being played by anyone but Kate.
MOENNIG: Maybe in a "Black Mirror" episode it's going to switch...
HAILEY: (Laughter)
MOENNIG: ...Where you can, and then I - maybe I play a version of Alice.
HAILEY: Oh, never thought of that.
MOENNIG: Yeah.
SUMMERS: It took a long time before there was another show quite like this. And I wonder if you feel like, when you look at our films, our media, even our music to some degree, if there's a more well-rounded representation of queer people.
MOENNIG: Oh.
HAILEY: Yes.
SUMMERS: I felt like it was quite one note in the pre "L Word" era, at least in my opinion.
HAILEY: Yes. I mean, I think, like, if you think of just, like, a power lesbian, let's just talk about that for a second. It was very corporate. It was career-driven. Like, the...
MOENNIG: Yeah.
HAILEY: ...Suits and the - it just felt like - I'm not going to say one note, but it was like, oh, a woman who walks in and knows what she wants. And now I feel like the idea of a power lesbian would be more inclusive and more fluid. I feel like queer characters are more well-rounded. I just don't think we have reached the goal yet where we have enough queer characters on television. So we're always left with these crumbs, and we're supposed to be so happy every time we see one, and of course we are, but I just think there's so much work to be done.
MOENNIG: One thing the show did back then was break cliches, and I can speak for Shane as an example. No one really understood what that character was until she landed on screen, and then it started to make sense. And I think that's because she's an example of breaking a cliche. Like, if you're boyish or if you sort of lean more masculine, less feminine, you're considered butch. It's like, well, that's not necessarily true.
HAILEY: It was very binary back then.
MOENNIG: It was binary.
HAILEY: And now I think - yeah.
MOENNIG: So there's more of, like, this beautiful arch of where you can fall in that.
SUMMERS: I mean, I do have to ask you, do you think you'd ever revisit those characters again? I know, of course, there was the "Generation Q" reboot, but will we ever see an Alice or a Shane?
HAILEY: Well, we never say never, but we don't own the brand or the IP, or we have no say in it.
MOENNIG: Who knows? I mean, we had a reboot one time. Maybe in 20 years they're going to want to do "L Word Hospice Care."
HAILEY: (Laughter).
MOENNIG: It's - you never know.
SUMMERS: When I started reading the book, I took the opportunity to rewatch some of the episodes of the show, which I've done from time to time over the years.
MOENNIG: Oh, no. Oh, no. No.
(LAUGHTER)
SUMMERS: And there's so much in it that I love, but there are also some other parts that don't stand the test of time as well. And Leisha, you wrote about the way that the show mirrored the cultural attitudes at the time towards bisexuality, and the way that the show understood the gender spectrum was also pretty fraught. And you've said that some scenes and the way that trans and nonbinary people were treated fill you with shame. Can you talk a little bit about that?
HAILEY: Yeah. I mean, I don't take responsibility for the lines I had to say or some of the scenes we all had to act because I would say all of us said things that were offensive, but I don't like that I was a part of that. I can't change where we were at the time. The writers were only using the language they had at the time. I do think, however, we were the first show to put those kinds of people on screen, so I'm both proud and ashamed at the same time. It depends which scene we're talking about. I know there were times where even Shane and Alice would completely be dismissive to Max, the character, as though he didn't exist or what he was trying to say didn't matter. It's that sort of ghosting, in a way, of someone's identity.
SUMMERS: I want to circle back to where we started, which is talking about your friendship. I know that the two of you also have a podcast that is rooted in your friendship. It's called "PANTS With Kate And Leisha." Can you just tell us about the name?
MOENNIG: (Laughter) Well, pants came from Mia Kirshner, who played Jenny, because Leisha and I were, like, two glue sticks stuck together. And one day Mia saw us, and she had a light bulb go off. And she said, oh, look, it's pants. And we said, what does that mean? She's like, you're like a pair of pants. You can't have one leg without the other.
SUMMERS: (Laughter).
MOENNIG: And we thought initially it was an insult, and then when we actually had the image in our head, we're like, actually, no, that makes sense. Cut to 15, 20 years later, and this podcast idea came to us. And we had to come up with a name, and Leisha goes, remember pants? I was like, there - that's it. That's the answer.
SUMMERS: Just listening to the two of you talk about your friendship, I love that there's this magic between the two of you, but you have made it so clear that it's not always some sort of fairytale and that maintaining a decades-long friendship takes work. I wonder if you could just tell us - maybe one thing from each of you - what's the key to making it work for all these years?
MOENNIG: I use the word consistency a lot because I think without it, things can die on the vine, especially when it's a friendship, and especially as you get older and you have different responsibilities than you did when you were in your 20s.
HAILEY: I think also, I've learned to be more vulnerable with Kate. We put so much concentration on, you know, significant others or our home life, but sometimes friendships take more work.
MOENNIG: And also, friendship's the perfect medicine. Sometimes it's just...
SUMMERS: Wow.
MOENNIG: It is. Like, there are times where...
HAILEY: To what (ph)?
MOENNIG: ...Like, sometimes I just - maybe just I'm having a day, whatever kind of day that is, and nothing's really scratching that itch. And then you and I will hop on the phone, and it's the perfect antidote. Oof (ph) - and now I move on.
SUMMERS: We have been speaking with Leisha Hailey and Kate Moennig, the authors of the memoir "So Gay For You." Thanks to both of you.
HAILEY: Thank you so much.
MOENNIG: Thank you for having us.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE L WORD THEME SONG (THE WAY THAT WE LIVE)")
BETTY MUNG'ORA: (Singing) Girls in tight dresses who drag with mustaches. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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