Florida's former surgeon general, Scott Rivkees, warned of "great harm to children" if the state Department of Health moves forward with its proposal to eliminate rules that require four vaccines for young children in daycare and schools.
His successor, Joseph Ladapo, last year called for an end to vaccine mandates and likened them to "slavery," saying people should be allowed to choose what shots they want for their children.
Rivkees is a pediatrician, and spoke to WUSF's Kerry Sheridan about what's at stake. This conversation has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
Dr. Rivkees, are these shots necessary? I mean, people may see the Department of Health do this and think maybe these shots should be optional.
"In terms of what is being proposed by Dr. Ladapo, it really is very arbitrary. It is not grounded in science and really has the potential to cause great harm to children. That is something that I would not have done."
And what do you see happening if this goes through?
"I think people really need to recognize what is at stake here. These four vaccines that are being selected for elimination really protect against very serious diseases: chickenpox, H. flu meningitis, pneumococcus, hepatitis. These are not endurable diseases that are like you have to endure them as a rite of passage. I've taken care of children with each of these conditions who have either died from their conditions or been left with permanent problems.
"These are not innocent illnesses, and we have to ask ourselves why, at the 11th hour of the DeSantis administration, is something like this being put forth? It's not fair to the children. It's not fair to the other citizens in the state of Florida who bear the consequences of this as well.
"What this means is that very serious illnesses, which are vaccine preventable, will start popping up again. Children are going to be sick. Some children are going to have to be hospitalized. Some children will sadly pass away, and some children will have long-term, permanent problems related to either getting chickenpox, H flu meningitis, pneumococcal meningitis, or pneumococcal pneumonia.
"Even if children don't have the very severe forms of these illnesses, which they can in an unpredictable way, this means that kids will be missing more school, parents will be missing more work, and the other thing is that this expands and spills over beyond the pediatric population, but into the general community. You have people in Florida who may be immunocompromised with chronic conditions, individuals who are older, who will also be susceptible as we start seeing these vaccine illnesses recur."
Dr. Ladapo declined our request for an interview ahead of Thursday's hearing, but about a year ago he announced he wanted to end all vaccine mandates in the state. What do you think about that? I mean, isn't the Surgeon General's job to protect people's health?
"Of course, that's the job of any physician as well. You don't have to be the surgeon general. As a pediatrician, which I am, I advocate for children, and advocate for doing things that keep children safe and healthy. When I was surgeon general during the pandemic, there were many nights I couldn't fall asleep, just trying to say what is the best thing we're going to do to keep people in Florida safe and healthy because the decisions that you make in this incredibly important position really can affect so many people in so many different ways if we don't get it right."
Dr. Ladapo has admitted he did not study the outcome of this decision, and said, basically, "who am I to tell people what they should put in their bodes?" Does it matter what he says or what kind of doubts he raises, in affecting how people act?
"You raise a really important point. This is something that the courts have weighed in on. More than a century ago, they said vaccines are neither arbitrary nor are they oppressive. I believe it was Justice John Marshall Harlan who actually said that individual liberty is not absolute or uncontrolled, but is subject to reasonable regulation necessary for the common good or for society, and this is what vaccination is. It's for the common good, it's for the individual, and it's for society."
So elections are coming up. How easy or hard would it be for Florida to undo this change if there's a new governor and a new surgeon general in place?
"It's really important to reflect on a couple of things. First, the legislature has already spoken on this issue. Dr. Ladapo proposed legislation that would do what he is trying to do by rule the last legislative session, and the legislature did not take it up. Also the people in Florida have spoken. There's been extensive polling which has been done, which shows that the people in Florida overwhelmingly support requiring school vaccines. I think even 71% of Republicans are in favor of this.
"So, if this rule happens to go through, then it could be undone either by a legislative process, in which case these vaccines are added by state law to the state vaccine legislated schedule, or the Department of Health, under new leadership, could actually reverse this rule, going back to requiring these vaccines for children to enter school."
And let's talk about what the next steps could be after the hearing. Could the department go and make these rule changes right away?
"In terms of the way things happen, a rule gets noticed, and after that window of time expires, then this rule can absolutely go into effect. Now, this is coming from the Florida Department of Health, but certainly will not go through without the blessing of the governor's office."
